From the Stands: Handicapping the PBA quarters, Jojo Lastimosa vs Mark Caguioa

Posted by Jaemark Tordecilla on April 8, 2011 at 16:48 | Comments (34)

The usual suspects Polo Bustamante, and Carlo Pamintuan were unavailable last night, so I stepped in for a one-on-one podcast with Chuck Araneta in the latest episode of the From the Stands podcast. After briefly eulogizing the B-MEG Derby Ace campaign in the Commissioner's Cup and talking about the controversial Alaska-Air 21 match-up, we broke down the quarterfinals matchups: Air 21 vs Alaska and Ginebra vs Rain or Shine, and how the teams stack up against top seeds Talk N Text and Smart Gilas.

For this week's Old School vs New School, we compare two of the PBA's greatest shooting guards: Jojo Lastimosa and Mark Caguioa, whose fans argue that each guy is the greatest player never to win the MVP award.

UPDATE: If you listened to the podcast, here is the link I mentioned that discussed James Yap and the Ewing theory at Pasa Ball, and here was the Patay ang Butiki analysis on high-usage players (like Yap) vs. high-efficiency players (like Simon) last conference.

Click on the player to listen, or download the file, or subscribe to it on iTunes or on RSS. And leave a comment, the From the Stands boys just might discuss them in the next episode, or even invite you to come along.

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Tags: Air 21 Express / Burger King Whoppers, Alaska Aces, B-MEG Derby Ace Llamados / Purefoods Tender Juicy Giants, Barangay Ginebra Gin Kings, Basketball, From the Stands podcast, Philippine Basketball Association, Rain or Shine Elastopainters, Smart Gilas Pilipinas National Basketball Team, Talk N Text Tropang Texters

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#1 workhorse3 on 2011-04-08 17:11 (Reply)

"Ginebra has a lot of closers" - this is a running joke right now. hahaha. Ginebra has been choking in close games :p

hey, I missed FTS last week!

#1.1 jaemark on 2011-04-08 17:15 (Reply)

Di sila nakapag-record last week eh. I think you'll enjoy the Caguioa discussion this week, hehe.

#1.1.1 workhorse3 on 2011-04-08 17:51 (Reply)

haha you're right. i did enjoy the geek talk! both are scorers, true, and both have their own memorable moments. Both can carry their teams on their backs at their peak (1991 Alaska was Jolas and the little indians). I'd say na halos patas, if not may onting lamang si Jolas (longevity, clutch shooting, more championships) over Caguioa (who has slowed down in recent memory), but I'd pick my guy over Jolas dahil 1) biased ako. 2) Ginebra fan ako.

A peak Jolas vs. a peak Caguioa is definitely something to watch. Both would probably try to outsmart and outscore each other.

#2 Nomad on 2011-04-08 17:30 (Reply)

Dapat Samboy vs Caguioa.

#3 Boo-rah-oat on 2011-04-08 17:52 (Reply)

jolas all the way. one on one or team play, he can hack it. nelson asaytono's more deserving of an mvp award than My Crocodile 47.

#4 aze on 2011-04-08 18:43 (Reply)

lets say caguioa didnt play for ginebra, or put him in a team other than any smb teams, well i can only compare him to a gary david level.

#4.1 APE on 2011-04-08 23:55 (Reply)

Pound for pound, Gary David is better (at least for the past 2 seasons) than the Spark.

#4.1.1 Nomad on 2011-04-09 09:16 (Reply)

who cares?! he can't help his team go to at least the quarters.

#5 Pasa Ball on 2011-04-08 19:14 (Reply)

J, Salamat much for the shout out!

#6 Carlo on 2011-04-08 19:29 (Reply)

Di na pala kami kailangan ni Polo e!hahaha Great job guys. It was a very good podcast. Sisihin niyo si Drian Francisco. Ang tagal niya magtraining. Di tuloy ako nakahabol.

#7 Polo on 2011-04-09 00:26 (Reply)

Great job! Namiss ko tuloy magrecord. More so since you dropped the Jolas debate na. I wanted to be there!

Alas. The day job pays the bills.

#8 Rodolfo Obniala on 2011-04-09 23:02 (Reply)

Hehe. kala ko joke lang yung tricycle. Ngayon ko lang napansin may tricycle pala talaga. Hinihintay ko naman ngayon yung mating cats.

#9 bzzz on 2011-04-10 19:40 (Reply)

Hopefully, for Old School vs New School, the hosts would discuss players they actually watched and at least check some stats/facts to back it up. The Caguioa/Jolas discussion was ok. The Caidic/James Yap was horrible. They severely underrated Caidic's scoring prowess, and made it seem like Caidic played with Calma, Samboy, and SMC the whole time. In fact, Caidic was the main scoring threat for Presto for a lot of year and was 1st option at times even with imports around.

#10 Chuck on 2011-04-11 11:00 (Reply)

Hi BZZZ!

Thanks for the critique about that segment and episode of our podcast. When we discuss old school vs new school, it's usually a spur of the moment thing, and we go with what we know and remember about the players involved. Sometimes it works (Jolas vs Caguioa, Asaytono vs Raymundo), and like the Caidic vs James Yap, we were in over heads. We're still learning, and trying to improve so that we can make a product 100% BS-free. Future eps we'll provide more reasoning behind our rationales. Thanks again!

#10.1 BZZZ on 2011-04-11 16:14 (Reply)

hi Chuck, thanks also for providing us enjoyable episodes (for free at that). Overall, the podcasts are good, Old School vs New School is a great idea, looking forward to more of these. I am sure these will continue keep on getting better

#11 Jaywalker on 2011-04-11 14:01 (Reply)

How bout for old school new school.. Bong Alvarez vs Cyrus Baguio.

#12 workhorse3 on 2011-04-11 14:30 (Reply)

were the FTS guys present during the Fil-Oil Flying V game? I think they were seated on my back and I kinda recognized one of the voices in FTS (must be Chuck's). or it must be me. would have wanted to personally commend them for the great basketball podcasts every week (but was too shy to approach haha). :p

#13 Polo on 2011-04-11 16:55 (Reply)

Hi BZZZ,

The Caidic and Yap comparison could have been improved. I agree with you there. Sometimes time or nostalgia can add to the bias for one player. We're gonna make sure that we do our homework and provide better support for our claims.

Hi JAYWALKER,

We had that comparison on tap already. But we decided on the Kerby and Nelson because Nelson was such an enigmatic and ploarizing figure that we decided on discussing his career. But I believe that the Paul Alvarez and Baguio comparison is the best comparison given the current PBA players. Wait for our discussion on these two in future podcasts.

Hi WORKHORSE3,

Unfortunately, sa Studio 23 lang kami nakapanood nun. But if I knew Kiefer was gonna explode like that shoulda gone there live! Note to self: expect nothing less than greatness from Kiefer. Hahahaha!

#14 camille vidan on 2011-04-11 17:43 (Reply)

While there are many factors to be considered when comparing one over the other, i consider the following test - 'who would you rather be your #1 guy when going for the championship'. Any team going for a championship will always start with one franchise player. This would be that one transcendent player who would carry the team on his back and say, 'follow me guys and we'll win'.
As you pointed out, Jolas has had much better success in winning championships, is probably more clutch, and had better longevity vs MC. But was he ever the #1 guy on your championship team? In his PF career, he had Alvin. In Alaska, he had Johnny A or Kenneth. I don't think he was ever the top banana.
MC led Ginebra in that All-Filipino championship. He won conference MVP, scorched TNT in the semis with 30ppg. Didnt get Finals MVP despite scoring 26ppg vs SMB in the finals (he had a sub-par 6th game with only 17points).
If i were GM of a team i'd start with Caguioa over Jolas.

#14.1 jaemark on 2011-04-11 18:18 (Reply)

all great points.

#14.2 booh rah oat on 2011-04-12 10:27 (Reply)

the difference lies in their respective teams. jolas needn't be the top banana in all of his teams because can play second fiddle and still produce top banana stats. add to that, he can be the top gun when the need arises. 4th quarterman, the best clutch performer during his time, and this was most evident during the 1998 asian games against kazahkstan. "follow me guys and we'll win," jolas said probably during that game.

i would love to see caguioa doing even half of that.

#14.2.1 camille vidan on 2011-04-12 18:29 (Reply)

There's a difference between being top banana, and playing 2nd fiddle while producing top banana stats. Take the latest findings about James Yap and PJ Simon. PJ does just as well as James, but take away James, and his efficiency goes down. That's because the top banana draws the defense. MC has always been the focus of the opposing team's defense. Can you say the same about Jolas?
Jolas' performance vs Kazakhstan is definitely clutch, but did he carry the team for the entire tournament?

#14.2.1.1 booh rah oat on 2011-04-12 18:35 (Reply)

that's what i'm trying to paint for you, jolas needn't do it (be the top banana or carry his team), but when the need arises, he can. caguioa has been always the focus of the opposing team's defense up to a certain time only, as all top bananas do . . . without solid supporters who are at at least as good as he or a team who has other options to who can score at will.

#14.2.1.1.1 camille vidan on 2011-04-14 10:54 (Reply)

I think that we are all assuming the he 'can', but without actual stats to back this up, i'd go for the one with proof.
Also, while I've said that Jolas is probably more clutch, by how much really? MC just posted 30pts, 11 rebs, 4ast. and only 1 TO while shooting 59% and sometimes playing point in a do-or-die game.
And why is Jolas only a '4th Quarter man'? While it's obvious that the 4thQ is most important, i'll pick game-long brilliance over a clutch performance in the 4th.

#14.2.1.1.1.1 booh rah oat on 2011-04-14 15:15 (Reply)

yeah, how do we measure the "clutchness" of a player? by stats only? i guess you'll agree that stats alone aren't enough to say how much of clutch a player is or jolas in this case.

so there lies our difference; you saying there's no stats to back the assumption that jolas can while i based it on the stats that he has already produced.

your last paragraph above seems to say that jolas only delivers in the fourth. i beg to disagree if that's what you're implying. why he's a 4th quarterman? the exact answer can be given by the one who gave him that monicker, but for me, he is the 4thquarterman because he still plays like the game has just begun in the final stretches of the game.

#15 Rai on 2011-04-11 22:32 (Reply)

Sir san ba mapapan0od mga ep nyo?=)

#15.1 jaemark on 2011-04-11 22:36 (Reply)

podcast lang yan, audio lang, walang video

#16 Jaywalker on 2011-04-13 08:26 (Reply)

Great point on THEM BEING ON THEIR team to gain their legacy. MC47 was the PERFECT classic example of a GINEBRA player in the mold of the Big J - cocky, showman, charismatic., and did i say cocky?

Jolas on the otherhand was the perfect Tim Cone soldier.. systematic, cerebral, cool. Yes we can argue Jolas was on his way out when he was in Pop cola hence no impact whatsoever.

Having put these two on other teams.. sorry legacy no more.

#17 Joel on 2011-04-14 16:51 (Reply)

Definitely, I pick Mark Caguioa over Jolas by a hairline! :D
Comparing their rookie year:
Jolas
Achievement: ROY , 2nd place (All Filipino) PF team
Had Patrimonio completed the season, i'm not sure if he got that award! Don't get me wrong! I strongly believe in Jolas' talent but Patrimonio was a phenomenon back then!
At this point, Jolas is not yet the clutch shooter that he become later!

MC47
Achievement: ROY , 2nd place (all Filipino)
During this time, the PBA has loads of explosive Fil Foreign players yet this cocky, pure-bred player shows them that he can play at par or even better at times.
At this point, he has even overshadowed their main men (Limpot and Meneses) in most occasions!
Whenever, the team is down and the veterans can't deliver , they field this fiery and energetic rookie and most of the time he delivers and his energy rubs off his teammates. That is a clutch player for me! Being a clutch player and always ignites the team when they're down earns him the monicker "Spark"
Another solid example is the knockout game between Shell and Ginebra for the right to face SMB for the crown. I think they're still down in the 4thQ when this rookie hit back to back clutch shots in a span of time to help the team advance to the championships

Jolas became mr clutch when he was with alaska. His great midrange and outside jumpers fits well with the team's triangle offense.
On the other hand, Caguioa proves he was a clutch player right on his rookie year. He does it with his exciting daredevil drives and run and gun style which brought another level of excitement to the game!

It really doesn't matter how this two get their points during clutch time but what gives me the idea that MC is better by a hairline is the quality of opposition, the level of play and athleticism during their prime. MC can create and score against bigger and equally athletic players like Arwind, Norwood etc. Throw in an Arwind or Tubid type of player against Jolas and maybe his clutchness(if there is such a word :D lol) will be reduce to half. This i believe because Jolas has slower feet than MC!

#18 airstides on 2011-04-17 11:52 (Reply)

Without fans there's is no PBA. now you know who is the main man here. Mark Caguiao..he is not doing it only for the team and for his self..but for the FANS na bumubuhay sa PBA! yan ang malaking lamang ni CAGUIOA over JOLAS! Caguiao is the true ginebra blood next to the legendary BIG J.

#18.1 Weh! on 2011-04-19 14:11 (Reply)

that's debatable. if that were true, why on earth did james yap garnered so much votes in this year's all-star than caguioa, and by a veeeeeeery wide margin at that?

http://www.gmanews.tv/story/218038/pba-all-stars-ginebras-backcourt-tandem-leads-north-yap-heads-south

the article is likely saying that even without caguioa, you'll lose only five fingers, but if you lose james yap, you'll lose both hands.

of course, that's debatable, too, that's why i won't be like you.

#18.1.1 St.Michael on 2011-04-22 01:05 (Reply)

think your arguement somewhat out of line (this is if it's a bi-product of airstrides comment). the username above you state a 'debatable view' about Caguioa with an intention to compare that of Mr. Lastimosa's. This has nothing to do with Mr. Yap or his fan votes as compared to that of MC.
Note: "yan ang malaking lamang ni CAGUIOA over JOLAS! Caguiao is the true ginebra blood next to the legendary BIG J."
"For this week's Old School vs New School, we compare two of the PBA's greatest shooting guards: Jojo Lastimosa and Mark Caguioa, whose fans argue that each guy is the greatest player never to win the MVP award."

#19 maverick on 2011-04-25 00:41 (Reply)

makisali lang, jolas was the main man of mama's love at the PABL as alvin with the swift, during was the fourth quarter man during the 1988 Purefoods I remember coach mon fernandez would bench jolas if the oponent is SMB and insert Jolas only in fourth quarter then jolas score 19pts all in the 4th PF would have been champ during the open conference benta lang si david thirdkill and all filipino allegedly benta naman si don ramon, 1991 third conference alska was known as Jolas and the 11 indians, but still manage to win the championship with alvarez and quilban injured, tim cone play is just give the ball to jolas, imagine polistico, peter aguilar harmon codinera as your bigmen? jolas as many believe sould have won the 1991 mvp but alvin beat because of nap guttierez i guess? when fkying a. and hawk arrive jolas is still the main gunner even during crunch time problem is the dreaded post of jolas with matching fadeway jumpshot was a suspect of double teaming of the opponent which open the hawks fying a. even captain marvel to their advantage, 1996 jolas should won the mvp but jhonny lead in statistic basically because of assist and steal and there was arrangemnt that who ever lead the stat they will vote him kesa nga naman mahati ang players vote mapunta pa kay marlou or alvin p. as to caguioa magaling sya magtear drop at cross over pero si menk ang mvp di ba?

#19.1 jolaslas on 2011-04-25 07:28 (Reply)

tsk tsk, tigil mo na ang mga bawal na gamot, maverick. mashado kang praning.

benta si thirdkill, benta si fernandez, niluto ni nap gutierrez, etc etc. kapraningan yan sobra! parehab ka na!

alala ko lang kay jolas, isa sa pinaka hypokritong player sa pba. kunware nakakawawa lagi, pero sinapak si hizon dati na walang dahilan. nung hinahamon sya ng suntukan, umaatras at nagtatago sa likod ni hawkins at juinio para maawat si hizon agad. si jolas din yung tumira kay samboy habang nasa gitna ng ere. pinagmumura tuloy ng fans ng smb, kaya ayun, halos maihi sa takot. kaya sya nasasapak ni jawo eh, baklita kasi maglaro.