Quick thoughts on the PBA annual awards
The Philippine Basketball Association will be handing out its awards for the season tonight, and James Yap would probably walk away with the season’s Most Valuable Player trophy. Few rational PBA fans would argue with the choice, considering Yap pretty much put his stamp on this season, leading Purefoods to the Philippine Cup championship and carrying his team to a decent showing in the Fiesta Conference despite missing Kerby Raymundo most of the tournament. With this season, Yap also cemented his stature as perhaps the PBA’s last crossover superstar, and while his marriage to Kris Aquino definitely made him a household name, his game all year has lived up to every expectation.
I am still queasy about the process in which awards are handed out by the league. Instead of voting individually, members of the press convene and vote as a bloc. This means that unless the other voters (TV panel, players, 5-man executive committee) vote overwhelmingly in another direction, the choice of the media members usually end up winning the awards.
There are so many problems with this system. At the very least, there should be no reason that members of the media – the gatekeepers of the legacy of the players and the league, by the way – should vote using anything other than their conscience to guide them. Worse, this opens the possibility for influence-peddling – I’ve heard second-hand reports of players being offered votes by media members in exchange for cash. It’s a terrible system, open to abuse, that has far-reaching implications on league history.
I also have an issue with how statistics play a role in the selection process for contenders of the award. For one, advanced statistical research by NBA teams has shown that boxscore statistics that we are still using have been incomplete at best, and misleading at worst. Houston Rockets general manager Daryl Morey, a major proponent of the use of statistics in basketball, doesn’t have much affection for traditional stats, saying, “Someone created the box score and he should be shot.”
For example, Kelly Williams leads the league in statistical points, as he often does, while the shortlist of candidates for the mythical team does not include a guy like Marc Pingris, a key cog in Purefoods’ championship run, and who murdered opposing forwards in big games all year long. Can’t you argue that, despite Kelly’s numbers, Sakuragi had at least as good a season as Williams did?
Ideally, this is where the media should come in and be the voice of reason. But after everything I wrote above, there’s no chance of that happening.
Comments
IMO, Pingris played better the whole season than Williams. that's why I'm a bit saddened on why he's not included in the choices for the 1st and 2nd Mythical team selection.
okay, i didn't miss the point, but if you're implying that pingris is sakuragi, who would be maki? i don't think there's a pba player who can play all five positions like maki.
i do think may mali sa pag gawa ng sp kse like nga yun kay kelly williams ang pangit ng showing nya this season napaka in consistent tapos n0.1 sa stats sa mvp same with asi sya pa ang 3rd dapat ibalik na yun dati na overall stats!
well... kelly played like an import during the Philippine Cup.
what i hate was the center spot. I mean, they could have placed washington or devance as the center in the first team and then put pingris on the second team.
thoss was an eight-point, six-rebound player. He is not a mythical team player! ranidel de ocampo could be there, rafi reavis could be there, asi taulava could be there, but thoss is NOT a mythical team player in this season. the fact that alaska is doing well without him is a testament to my point.
and what about gabe norwood? I know that the PG, SG, and SF positions are stacked but part of me wanted him to be there.
what i hate was the center spot. I mean, they could have placed washington or devance as the center in the first team and then put pingris on the second team.
thoss was an eight-point, six-rebound player. He is not a mythical team player! ranidel de ocampo could be there, rafi reavis could be there, asi taulava could be there, but thoss is NOT a mythical team player in this season. the fact that alaska is doing well without him is a testament to my point.
and what about gabe norwood? I know that the PG, SG, and SF positions are stacked but part of me wanted him to be there.
Look at the list of candidates on the C position and tell me which of them should replace Thoss. Does J-Wash play C? Does JDV play C? You did state Alaska is doing great without Thoss, which is this conference, but you fail big time in stating Thoss is the one key player that made it possible for Alaska to sweep Ginebra on the Phil cup semis. No one from the Gins can stop Sonny from scoring underneath and grab those boards.
Would you rather put Asi on the first team? Remember that there are lots of question coming out when it comes to awarding and how they come up with the winners. Simply put it this way, Asi is a great C playing with an awful team. I'm not one who decides but I bet those people who does put this into consideration when picking for members of mythical team. Yes it's unfair putting a great player aside just because his team didn't do well.
Shouldn't it be based on the players performance? Yes that should also be the case. Now if that's the case, how come James Yap won BPC last Phil cup when he's not even included on the top 5 performer of that Conference?
It's not just the one award that's in question. I bet you also know about the issue involving the Best Import award. Life is unfair, I can also make my own assumptions and do my own mythical selection, but it is what it is.
Would you rather put Asi on the first team? Remember that there are lots of question coming out when it comes to awarding and how they come up with the winners. Simply put it this way, Asi is a great C playing with an awful team. I'm not one who decides but I bet those people who does put this into consideration when picking for members of mythical team. Yes it's unfair putting a great player aside just because his team didn't do well.
Shouldn't it be based on the players performance? Yes that should also be the case. Now if that's the case, how come James Yap won BPC last Phil cup when he's not even included on the top 5 performer of that Conference?
It's not just the one award that's in question. I bet you also know about the issue involving the Best Import award. Life is unfair, I can also make my own assumptions and do my own mythical selection, but it is what it is.
Statistics, while oftentimes not showing the whole story, are just too convenient to let go of. Once we've updated statistics so that hey show hustle plays like taking a charge or creating second chance points then we'll get a better picture, but I see no reason why they should be abandoned.
i doubt jaemark is advocating for abandonment of statistics. the traditional box score is problematic, but its also still a good starting point for the more advanced stuff.
if i remember right, it was morey who also said that the problem with the box score was it didn't necessarily track what was important, but what was easy to track.
still, even morey uses the traditional box score i'm sure. he said their team tracks everything so i guess that includes the traditional ones.
if i remember right, it was morey who also said that the problem with the box score was it didn't necessarily track what was important, but what was easy to track.
still, even morey uses the traditional box score i'm sure. he said their team tracks everything so i guess that includes the traditional ones.
It seemed a little up in the air where he stood on statistics, so i thought i'd throw my two cents in. A full stat system would have to include heart (how many charges and physical plays a player makes) and an insanity (the percentage a player will flip out in a game, with a 50/50 chance of the result being either good or bad). :P
I forgot to mention that you(jaemark) made a very good point about the MVP system. Bloc voting of any sort makes my skin crawl.
I forgot to mention that you(jaemark) made a very good point about the MVP system. Bloc voting of any sort makes my skin crawl.
Up in the air? Here's what i wrote:
"For one, advanced statistical research by NBA teams has shown that boxscore statistics that we are still using have been incomplete at best, and misleading at worst."
The problem with traditional stats -- the one that causes its being incomplete and misleading -- is that it is devoid of any context. All rebounds are counted the same, whether they're grabbed in traffic, or whether they're gimmes from free throw misses.
Traditional stats, for example, would tell you that Jay Washington scores a lot of points and grabs a lot of rebounds. It wouldn't tell you that he's kind of a wuss who likes to avoid contact.
Ideally, in a system like this, you would get experts with knowledge of the game -- the media -- to make sense of the stats, to give the context that it sorely lacks. Unfortunately, we can't rely on them for that with the system we have.
"For one, advanced statistical research by NBA teams has shown that boxscore statistics that we are still using have been incomplete at best, and misleading at worst."
The problem with traditional stats -- the one that causes its being incomplete and misleading -- is that it is devoid of any context. All rebounds are counted the same, whether they're grabbed in traffic, or whether they're gimmes from free throw misses.
Traditional stats, for example, would tell you that Jay Washington scores a lot of points and grabs a lot of rebounds. It wouldn't tell you that he's kind of a wuss who likes to avoid contact.
Ideally, in a system like this, you would get experts with knowledge of the game -- the media -- to make sense of the stats, to give the context that it sorely lacks. Unfortunately, we can't rely on them for that with the system we have.
The use of the word misleading seemed to signify a negative stance on stats, without really pressing the issue. Upon rereading I (hopefully) understand where you're coming from.
If we can agree that stats are a) still important as a quick baseline for judging a playerbut b) they need to improve, I'd like your thoughts on how they could be improved (theoretically, since obviously neither of us are decision-makers in this).
Using your example of context with regards to difficulty of rebounding, let's say if a ball just falls in the hands of a player that's .25 of a rebound, if a player gets a rebound after boxing out on a free throw that's .5 of a rebound and if a player tracks down a missed three and manages to throw up a buzzer beater that's one solid rebound?
If we can agree that stats are a) still important as a quick baseline for judging a playerbut b) they need to improve, I'd like your thoughts on how they could be improved (theoretically, since obviously neither of us are decision-makers in this).
Using your example of context with regards to difficulty of rebounding, let's say if a ball just falls in the hands of a player that's .25 of a rebound, if a player gets a rebound after boxing out on a free throw that's .5 of a rebound and if a player tracks down a missed three and manages to throw up a buzzer beater that's one solid rebound?
it bugs me that even with the emergence of pbfantasy, where stats are regularly updated, PBA stat guys still think that "popularity" votes are difference makers!
Actually, NBA teams and stats enthusiasts have already made a lot of headway in terms of advanced stats. Publications such as Basketball Prospectus and writers such as John Hollinger, for example, make use of a stat called rebound rate -- how much of the available rebounds a player gets while on the court, and this could further be broken down by the "quality" of other rebounders on the court at the same time.
NBA teams like the Rockets have taken it further, they actually track actual, play-by-play rebounds. So they could tell you how good a player actually is when rebounding in traffic, rebounding when he's playing PF instead of C, that kind of thing.
NBA teams like the Rockets have taken it further, they actually track actual, play-by-play rebounds. So they could tell you how good a player actually is when rebounding in traffic, rebounding when he's playing PF instead of C, that kind of thing.
Just before Purefoods become a history in the PBA, it recorded another feat: sweeping the MVP and ROY for the first time.
As for James Yap, after the Philippine Cup Finals, he was not only the favorite but also the MVP was already his. All others were just pretenders. lol
As for James Yap, after the Philippine Cup Finals, he was not only the favorite but also the MVP was already his. All others were just pretenders. lol
you're so bitter. lol
don't you worry, and mark my word, j-wash and arwind will never win any MVP in their PBA lifetime. lol
don't you worry, and mark my word, j-wash and arwind will never win any MVP in their PBA lifetime. lol
bitter my a$$, as if you're the one who won mvp. but even so, those two you mentioned have to share the spotlight with such talented teammates, thereby reducing what could've been more stats for them. they are not the main man of the team they belong to, such total opposite for james yap. and that's reality.
lol ganito na lang.
some are born and destined to be superstars while others are complementary and bit role performers.
anyway, they are a necessity.
masaya ka na? pag di pa, tatawagin ko si Manong Johnny. lol
some are born and destined to be superstars while others are complementary and bit role performers.
anyway, they are a necessity.
masaya ka na? pag di pa, tatawagin ko si Manong Johnny. lol
a wee bit satisfactory statement, if you ask me. i'm just waiting for james yap to be traded to san miguel. if that happens, let us see if he can get another mvp trophy for kris aquino.
kahit ako nalilito ako paano yung voting system and how the votes are counted and paano sila isasama sa statistical points hehe
jaemark, one time interviewhin ka namin sa program namin all about pba hehe :)
jaemark, one time interviewhin ka namin sa program namin all about pba hehe :)
let's look at it this way, purefoods won 4-0 in a championship, james yap won mvp, rico maierhoffer won rookie of the year, all of these happened just before they exit the pba. any company leaving an organization would love to have that prestige.
if you count in the fact that there was a game earlier this decade that showed an endgame score in the early part of that game's third quarter, you would know that all of this might be what the writer of the script for this year's drama wants.
if you count in the fact that there was a game earlier this decade that showed an endgame score in the early part of that game's third quarter, you would know that all of this might be what the writer of the script for this year's drama wants.
i dunno, jae. kelly had a pretty beastly season. take away those games in the 2nd conference that were still in SLR (where he either could not find a way to fit with anthony johnson or he knew he was going to be traded and was dogging it), and he was an absolute stud this year.
thing with kelly is, at least offensively, he's extremely high usage, while pingris is very efficient but in a limited capacity. the difficult thing is to maintain high efficiency as your usage goes up. i dont know if pingris can do it if he has to take up as many possessions as kelly does. and defensively, kelly isn't bad either.
nothing against pingris though. you know im a big pingris guy. and no doubt, dude is clutch. the guy must live for the playoffs.
thing with kelly is, at least offensively, he's extremely high usage, while pingris is very efficient but in a limited capacity. the difficult thing is to maintain high efficiency as your usage goes up. i dont know if pingris can do it if he has to take up as many possessions as kelly does. and defensively, kelly isn't bad either.
nothing against pingris though. you know im a big pingris guy. and no doubt, dude is clutch. the guy must live for the playoffs.
Well, I won't argue with you if you wanna say Kelly had a better season, I'm perfectly fine with that. But with Ping out of the shortlist, it only means that he's not even in the discussion. That doesn't seem right, does it?
probably not.
who was on the shortlist, anyway? i skipped the awarding and started watching during the game na.
who was on the shortlist, anyway? i skipped the awarding and started watching during the game na.
This was the list of candidates for the Mythical Team forwards:
CAREY, Harvey
DE OCAMPO, Ranidel
DEVANCE, Joe
NORWOOD, Gabe
SANTOS, Arwind
WASHINGTON, Jay
WILLIAMS, Kelly
CAREY, Harvey
DE OCAMPO, Ranidel
DEVANCE, Joe
NORWOOD, Gabe
SANTOS, Arwind
WASHINGTON, Jay
WILLIAMS, Kelly
they did one list for both forward spots?
probably would have left out carey since he obviously wasn't going to be selected anyway. he was behind in production to both ranidel and kelly on his own team.
who would you have wanted ping to replace though?
probably would have left out carey since he obviously wasn't going to be selected anyway. he was behind in production to both ranidel and kelly on his own team.
who would you have wanted ping to replace though?
i'd have put Sakuragi in the first team, but i might be a little biased, hehe. although i would have dropped Roger Yap from the Mythical Selection and put Sol Mercado instead.
I would have removed JDV from the list. lol
oh yeah, mercado should have made it in there. sol had a great season.
There is an ocean of advanced stats on the game...http://sonicscentral.com/apbrmetrics/viewforum.php?f=1
But the question is this - would the advanced stat indices applied to NBA applicable to the PBA?
But the question is this - would the advanced stat indices applied to NBA applicable to the PBA?
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